We have many conflicting buzzwords in our national media. Sometimes it feels like we are being feed talking points from the influence makers form the 2 major parties in power during our time. Amongst all of this is the reality of radical Islam, which will promote any pathway to destroy western dominance. Israel fits in this equation somewhere... What do you consider reasonable immigration policy which will provide an acceptable level of security from radical Islam and allow humanitarian escape of in-human conditions in Mexico and Central America?
As an aside, what constitutes in-human conditions these days? Most of our forefathers used to live in poor conditions every day. We had a great change after the great war .Does the government owe us a high degree of living since the working class won the war? Does American business owe some allegiance to the working class since they are the ones that built the apparatus that won the war? How about the American military that made the world safe for international commerce? I guess it all really comes down to who has the chedda' today...........
ReplyDeleteWhat do you consider reasonable immigration policy which will provide an acceptable level of security from radical Islam and allow humanitarian escape of in-human conditions in Mexico and Central America?
ReplyDeleteCurrently we care for between 11 and 30 million illegals escaping their countries to the south. How many more can we take? With 12 million unemployed and million working part time and wages stagnant, can we continue to allow the free flow of cheap labor?
American are the most generous people in the world and give and give. Do we continue to allow people to come to the US illegally while so many of our citizens are harmed by the influx of cheap labor? The work they find pays less than government benefits, why should anyone take a job paying minimum wage?
When is enough enough?
One of the best questions in a while he storm. And a very complex problem. We have an immigrant population that will hit 40 million by 2020 even if we close the border today. What can we financially afford to do with all these people. America has always been the safe haven for all the oppressed worldwide. Some we allow to come for various reasons and others just come. What is the solution.
ReplyDelete#1 continue working on sealing our southern border, a difficult and damn near impossible feat considering the length and terrain of the border. We don't need to invest money in a fence. Those who would use that entrance point would merely tunnel underneath a fence. How long did it take Hamas to tunnel under the Israeli fence around the Gaza Strip. Same thing would happen. we need to build an electronic fence across our southern border manned by an appropriate number of agents to catch these people crossing. deploy drones if necessary to help. Then what to do with them. We hear a lot of gruff about catch and release but what is the alternative. Keep them in an overcrowded prison system for how long and at what expense. One thing that definitely needs to happen is we need more and faster immigration courts. I read recently where the state of Louisiana , a state hit extremely hard by this influx of Central American children has only 3 immigration courts and no full time judge for those courts. The case load in Louisiana has gone from 450 a year to well over 2000 a year, and I doubt that any other state is any better off except maybe New York and California where they have dealt with immigration from day 1. Those who are here?. Once we get a court system that can process them, each case needs to be looked at, time in country, ties to our country, age when they came here, thorough background checks and are they working. Each case each result would depend on these criteria. Those who are here trying to raise a family, have bought property, have started a business, all this needs to be considered. Those who break the law/have broken the law, well that's an automatic refusal. Those who were brought here as babies and young children should be allowed to stay. I wouldn't want to have to go back to England, Ireland, Scotland or France to try to make it or look up relatives who I do not know. But that is what we would be asking of these now young adults who are as American in culture as our own children. Let's bring these people out of the shadows into the mainstream as tax paying contributing citizens. That would be a win /win for everyone. Revenues would increase, benefits given decrease, and wages would increase because these people would be able to confront those who exploit them without fear of retribution. But the first steps are to control the border in a wise and efficient manner, and develop a court system that can handle the problem.
Yes let's ignore Americans and take care of the world. Another stellar democrat solution.
DeleteAcademic studies clearly show mass immigration’s disastrous effects on the black community: According to Northeastern University professor Andrew Sum, a mere one-percentage-point increase in a state’s labor force caused by immigration results in a 1.2-percentage-point decline in the employment rate of 16- to 24-year-olds in general, and a decline of twice that amount among younger blacks. Harvard economics professor George Borjas says that between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the wages of all American workers by 4 percent, with even higher wage reductions for high school drop-outs and black workers. Coupled with our increasingly tech-based, non-manufacturing economy, further flooding of the low-skilled labor market with imported workers will spell disaster for blacks all over the country.
Then there’s affirmative action. Although originally designed by President Kennedy as a jobs booster for blacks, the various preference programs also catch Hispanic immigrants the moment they step into the country. CUNY sociologist Stephen Steinberg, in an essay about mass immigration’s effects on black America, says Hispanics “derailed” affirmative action by “crowding under [its] meagre umbrella.” With the Hispanic population (including illegals) to soon double that of blacks and the slots in set-aside programs, colleges, and public employment shrinking, true black leadership on immigration is ever more necessary.
We pay for the people that cannot find work and subsidize illegals to work in the US and say, no problem wend all you want.
p.s. Want more revenue (taxes) less expense?
DeleteSend illegals home, put American back to work or cut their freebies.
lou as usual a lot of bantering about and no suggestion of a workable solution. We all know the problem. How would you economically and efficiently handle the problem within the bounds of our laws. You never really have solutions just gripes.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI deleted the above because of a factual error. This has now been corrected and post should read as follows:
DeleteR
Kingston September 2, 2014 at 5:17 PM
Stormy,
So good to read again a contribution from you. It seems to have been far too long, and from Pflunky also.
There may perhaps be some little value as a discussion point if I relate the last decade of the Australian experience with illegal migration. As you probably know, we are signatories to various UN resolutions including resettlement of refugees on a per capita basis. Unfortunately there are far more who wish to come than our generous quotas allow. As a consequence of the above, there has, over the past decade been an exponential increase in what we call people smuggling. Nationals from the Middle East, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka and other nations beset with civil wars and armed conflict have all tried to get to Australia. The means of travel have been to arrive legally into Indonesia then employ crews of small and generally un seaworthy boats to make the short but hazardous journey to Australia. The costs to the would be immigrants is huge, both in money and in loss of lives.
During the six years of the labor government, the smuggling trade exploded as the government changed the policy of the preceding regime and chaos was the order of the day. Over sixty thousand people arrived illegally by boat and were placed in detention centers. Unrest occurred and chaos became a massive cover up and eventually off shore processing. At all times the UNHCR have been involved and the usual civil rights people have stirred the pot.
Last September our general election changed the government and the new regime were elected with a mandate to clean up the mess. The means used are somewhat draconian but it is now more than seven months since the boats stopped coming and I cannot remember when the last fatality occurred at sea. The system now used is two fold. Discourage the attempts to come here and to process offshore any who do arrive. To this end, Australia has an arrangement with Papua New Guinea and Nauru to ship arrivals to those nations without ever allowing them to set foot on Australian shore and to prohibit them from ever being settled in Australia.
In addition to the above measures, there is constant surveillance of our northern borders and any boats detected are intercepted and towed back to Indonesian waters. This has meant total success in preventing illegal entry and at the same time has allowed the UNHCR quota to be accepted from genuine refugee camps where in some cases, people have been waiting for a decade...
So there you are; I realize your situation is totally different but the problem is essentially one needing a strong government. Given the will of the government is supported by the will of the people, almost anything is possible.
Cheers from Aussie.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteKing and that is a big step, never letting them settle. We have to catch and release or put them in a prison system that is already overcrowded and expensive to run. Catch and release at least affords that they will not settle. Once settled on American soil our law allows for a proper review of circumstances and appeals etc. Although (yes lou) I realize that an illegal is not afforded protections under the constitution it is the way we do things in America. Once settled here you get those rights deserving or not. King that is one of the strengths of our democracy and our constitution is that once here and settled it extends to everyone. But as stated above we have been so lax over the years to develop a comprehensive immigration policy, by both parties, that we don't even have an immigration court system to handle the rights we extend to everyone on American soil. Illegal Immigrants have broken the law (yes lou I realize that) but they are extended the right to a hearing whether we agree with it or not.
ReplyDeletethat's why King my solution would be to develop our court system for immigration. Seal the border electronically, Allow what we call the dreamers, (people who are now adult that were brought here illegally by their parents when they were small children), those in good standing, to remain and seek a path to citizenship. They are culturally just as American as my children. Then we have the problem of people that have been here illegally for many many years. they have married, came here married, or in many instances married Americans and there are children of these marriages. Our constitution states that anyone born on American soil is by birthright an American. So what do we do in these instances especially where both parents are illegals but the children are citizens. Many are property owners in the US and have started useful businesses that benefit not only their shadow culture but American citizens as well. During the boom years of the tech revolution when Americans wanted to sit on computers looking for instant gratification and a quick million, we welcomed these people to do the drudgery of life. Now when Americans need jobs they are a scourge to humanity. As I stated above it is a complex problem with complex solutions not the simple round them up and deport them solution of the right. Ronald Reagan granted unconditional amnesty in the 80's so we gained an influx of our southern neighbors in the hope that it would happen again. Probably our best way out of the current situation is amnesty with conditions, conditions met or you go home, even if it means taking your American kids with you. There are just too many people and too little court time to deal with the problem as it stands. Bring these people out of the shadows, have them working at proper wages that they can demand when legalized, without fear of repercussions, Make them contributing citizens, contributing taxes, Social security and all the wonderful things that Americans get to pay. Legal Hispanics have assimilated into country and culture along our southern border and in California. They will do the same nationwide if we get the shadow culture eliminated.
I've posted this before, simply make it too costly for American businesses, big or small, to employ illegals. As our resident Libertarian, TheScott, has pointed out, businesses are amoral entities existing almost solely for profit. Just make employing illegals highly unprofitable.
ReplyDeleteEnact some seriously punitive consequences for businesses that do exploit illegal labor and focus on that aspect of enforcement. 90 percent of illegals will disappear inside of 18 months. No work for illegals, no illegal workers - we wouldn't have to deport anyone, they'd leave on their own. It's really that simple.
Logistically, it's a hell of a lot easier to enforce and it's waaaay cheaper than building a ridiculous 700-mile long wall along a 1500-mile border that won't work (historically, walls have never worked) and militarizing our southern border. It would also make standard monitoring of potential terrorist threats that much easier.
Those Salvadorian, Guatemalan, and Honduran kids that were sleeping on the floor at the border station are not illegals workers looking to steal away lucrative jobs like cleaning toilets & selling oranges at freeway exit ramps from Americans. They are refugees - refugees sent by their parents to escape the brutal violence of their homes - violence that sprung as a byproduct of the ridiculous War On Drugs. They are refugees and should be regarded as such.
The "Dreamers" are the gray area. Provide them a reasonable short path to legal status maybe that includes some form of public service. Culturally, they're as American as anyone else. They shouldn't be excessively punished for the sins of their parents.
I just had a discussion with a very accomplished business leader that confirms the content of an article I read a few years ago. The one advantage that the U.S. has over other mature Western (and Japan) economies is population growth. An influx of new, young people into the population is a huge economic driver who pick up the slack for the older, less productive members of society. All the other First World populations have stagnated. The U.S.'s continues to grow and that is solely because of immigration.
Just throwing in something else to consider when we discuss the economic impact of immigration in the U.S.
1. How many refugees should we accept? Why limit it to Central America when there are so many in the world in need or are they special? Who pays for educating the refugees? When they are citizens, they can also bring their families to the US. So much for a diverse population as all seem to be Hispanic.
ReplyDelete2. When you give citizenship to dreamers, they are allowed to bring their families to the US legally. That includes the parents who brought them to the US illegally. That good for you?
3. The US stagnates in population because wages, and wealth stagnates, is this how you really want to grow the population.
4. Enforcement is easy, the lacking component, political will.
Hiya Lou. Idk what the policy is for asylum in this country. I only brought up the refugees cuz I hear it discussed like it is the same issue as the illegal workers and it isn't. I pointed it out to dilineate.
DeleteThe Dreamers become much less of an issue, even a non-issue, if we do what I suggested in the 1st para.
As for political will, well, as always, follow the money ...
Dreamers. Upon citizenship they will be allowed by law to bring their parents into the country legally and they can become citizens. How is that right?
DeleteThe alleged refugees, the same applies. Why not allow anyone from any country into the US? Why do you and many favor those breaking the law crossing the southern border?
It's never as easy or cut and dry as it may appear.
One last ting, what about American citizens? Our children and the money it takes to educate children from other countries. It certainly takes away from our children, not to mention the additional costs in welfare to care for the alleged refugees many who are not children but classified as a child by our law.
Lou we had a President who made anyone living in the hemisphere more important then any others. His Name was James Monroe and he stated that America would intervene in Latin American countries that were threatened by European powers. Republican Secretary of State James G Blaine,(Garfield (R OH) ) was the first to suggest the big brother policy to our south in 1881 and it has kinda stuck.That remark was later expanded by Ronald Reagan to justify the Iran/ Contra deal. The Roosevelt Corollary (T Roosevelt (R NY)) gave the US the right to intervene during political and domestic wrongdoing by a Latin American country whether backed by a European country or not. Recently John Kerry has proclaimed the Monroe Doctrine dead replaced by a mutual understanding and partnership among the American states is more in keeping with the tenets of the original message then with the interventionist policies that had been enacted over the years. So Yeah Lou we have Always, ALWAYS treated Latin America as special over other areas of the world.
DeleteOperative words, we had.
DeleteThat was in 1823 and certainly doesn't apply today.
Either close the border or open it for the world.
p.s. We cannot fix our southern neighbors problems by accepting millions of their people. The people remaining still have the same problems of the people that remain. Should we accept all of them into the US.
When will it become American citizens first??
Ah HA! that was 1789. That was then this is now. Another document well intentioned document written long ago by very smart men who had no way to for see what America would look like 225 years later. Another living document that has been twisted and interpreted to meet the current times as we have washed through history. Can't pick and choose Louman both are documents of our history and both have been reinterpreted as times change. Lou there may be hope for you and Glenn Beck yet! But what I ask lou in this great debate (Kingston Australian) where is your solution. you have every complaint in the world but you have not proposed one word of solution. Like your party you have no original ideas that will work just the same old worn out dribble.
DeleteMy solution is enforce the law. Period.
DeleteDeport those here illegally.
Cut off all support to all countries using the US as a dumping ground for their excess populations.
Interesting isn't it. Mexico allows free passage to Central Americans who want to come to the US but incarcerates those trying to enter their country illegally and stay. Yes Mexico is a great friend to the US, NOT.
This has become a great debate, all sides getting a chance and a very minimum of what I like to call” mean spirit”. Rick wants a bigger and better court system in order that fairness can be demonstrated to all. Pflunky wants to demonise employers so that the illegals are driven from the country by lack of employment opportunities. Lou identifies the problem and also identifies the reason for no resolution of same.Pfunky, in her last post gives a mournful wail with which we can all identify. Where are the will of the people and the will of the government on this vexed issue?
ReplyDeleteSomething I learned in infant school over seventy years ago and which has stuck in my mind ever since is the Statue of Liberty; standing as it does at the gateway to your country. Our school books showed a huge green goddess like structure upon which was a inscription containing the following, or something very similar ““Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”
To understand the inscription we need perhaps to remember the history and the time frame which was the gestation period for the problems of today.
I believe that your constitution was framed around the perceived wrongs perpetrated by the King and Parliament of England upon your people. The limitations of trade, of civil rights, of unfair taxes against American settlers without the representation of your people in the parliament of the mother country.
Rick points out that your constitution provides everyone with certain rights, even the illegals who have settled in America. Herein lies a problem; I fail to see how those “rights” can be called upon to protect someone who arrived illegally. If that avenue of appeal could be removed then removal of illegals would be much easier.
Do you wish to remove illegals? Well perhaps the question should be; can you afford to keep them? Judging by the statistical evidence it appears that there is no question that you have too many living off the taxpayer.
All of the above boils down to a simple premise: Your constitution continues to govern the greatest country in the world, not because it is so good, but because it is treated in the same way the godly treat the tablets brought down from the mountain. Less than thirty amendments in over two hundred years, a Bill of rights so awe inspiring in concept and in the way they were drafted that history has forgotten why these 10 amendments were passed by Congress in 1789.There were originally 12 amendments but the second took a further 200 hundred years to pass (27th amendment) and the twelfth remains in limbo, never having been ratified.
So in conclusion, if you admit to having a problem, perhaps you need to go back to the beginning and amend that sacred document so that you have not only the will but the means to take control of the destiny belonging to the present rather than the past. Lou sums it up best,' Enforcement is easy, the lacking component, political will.”
Cheers now from Aussie
No Kingston, there is a segment of America who does not want to remove illegals. Many would love to legalize them as he sees them as hard workers and would benefit from their cheap labor.
DeleteWhat so many miss is the fact that illegals represent a cost to our society both direct and indirect. An excess pool of entry level workers forces wages to stagnate. They then call for higher minimum wages. The indirect costs are the costs related to caring for American citizens that have part time work, no work, we care for them as well as illegals. We educate illegals as well as provide basic healthcare for them.
Amending the sacred document isn't the answer, enforcing the law is the answer.
Who is he is that me. Am I the segment that would legalize them?. Louman the vast majority are hard workers. My proposed plan to legalize is in trying to balance the problem and the solution. We could add to it Pfunky's comment to punish employers for hiring them. Either way what we have is a costly complex problem that we have allowed to fester through times of great prosperity and it has now come to a head during times of a weaker economy. We operate under the scrutiny of E verify here in NC. There are still an awful lot of illegals here and working. Because the law excuses employers under 25 employees. Our wonderful repub legislature, lead by Kay Hagan's opponent Thom Tillis in a move to help him look better, took it one step further. They allowed any employer to hire seasonal employees for up to nine months. Lou nine months almost makes it worth hiring them. See we also do a big catering business. So right now catering picks up as people start planning office parties , retailers need black Friday feeds etc. So why not hire them now train, exploit, and then just let them go in February when business slows down? it would all be within the bounds of NC law.
DeleteYou miss the point also.
DeleteWhen does it become American citizens first?
Why do we subsidize unemployed American citizens and subsidize illegals at the same time.
Why not have a work for welfare country first and bring in illegals and give them work permits after Americans are employed? No Rick, you would rather employ illegals and forget your fellow American citizens.
I'm in the middle of remodeling the house. After 5 companies reviewed and bids, I selected a small company using American citizens for labor and yea they are doing a great job and the price is similar to the companies using illegals. The American company is struggling as they work hard to meet the competitions price. I will pay more for Americans vs. illegals.
Everyone chooses. I chose Americans, you choose illegals.
Your another true American supporting America. LOL.
I have a few questions for King. Exactly how would you amend our constitution, how would you ascertain the benefits of this changing, and at what point is a nation no longer a nation?
ReplyDeleteAnd this gets back to our previous arguments concerning secession, if you change the nature of the basic culture, why should those unhappy with those changes not have the right to break the union?
@Lou -
ReplyDeleteAgain, the number of Dreamers and refugees becomes relatively tiny and much more manageable if we eliminate all other illegal workers, and there will never be a new crop of Dreamers if the law continues to be enforced.
@King -
"Demonise" is a strong word with implications that I didn't intend. It is already illegal to employ undocumented workers. I'm merely stating that real enforcement in conjunction with seriously punitive consequences would be a cheaper, easier, and much more logical way to solve the problem of illegal workers in the U.S. (If we really want to solve it)
Again, in moral terms, businesses are neither good nor evil. The only moral obligation they have is to their bottom line. Making the exploitation of illegal labor too risky and too costly for businesses would solve the problem.
The illegals are just desperate poor people looking to make a better life for themselves. My guess is that everyone on this site would do the exact same thing if they found themselves in similar circumstances. I liken it to the DEA going after the cartel of dealers rather than the individual user/offender nodding off on his couch in his apartment. Going after the employer rather than the illegal employee is the same principle.
pfunky, they already do go after the legitimate employers,,ok, maybe not strong enough, but they do.
DeleteHow do you propose going after the "underground" employers that employ many of these illegals? Those shadowy, uninsured, cash based, fly by night operations that scoop illegal labor off our street corners each and every day. Do you propose an even greater police presence? Even more incarceration?
This underground economy is estimated at around 2T, double what is was in 2009.
"Shadow economies are usually associated with illegal activity, such as drug dealing. But anecdotal evidence indicates that off-the-books work in today's job market includes personal and domestic workers, such as housekeepers and nannies.
"The jobs are in service industries from small food establishments to landscaping." said David Fiorenza, an economy professor at Villanova University. "Even the arts and culture industry is not immune to working off the books in areas of music and entertainment."
It also includes firms that hire hourly or day construction labor, information technology specialists and Web designers. Many who have a job that doesn't pay enough take another one that pays under the table.
"We've always had people who make income without recording it, so it's not really new," said Peter McHenry, an assistant professor of economics at William & Mary College. "But the fact that more and more people are doing it shows how bad the job picture is," he added.
The reasons behind the underground economy's growth are fairly simple, according to Gonzalez.
"There's a lot of uncertainly about immigration changes and who will be legal, and about paying for Obamacare," she said, adding that most workers in the shadow economy are in the country illegally. "Government rules are keeping businesses from hiring.""
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/05/12/2-trillion-dollar-underground-economy-recovery-savior/2144279/
And again let's work at ending this 2T underground economy and making these folks honest tax paying citizens.
Deletepfunky, you miss the point.
DeleteGive amnesty and citizenship to dreamers.
The new citizen has a right by law to bring their relatives to the US legally and they can apply for citizenship. That means the parents who broke our laws are now eligible for US citizenship.
A great reward for breaking the law.
Take it one step further, if you enter Mexico illegally, you are jailed and not rewarded with citizenship. Is that equitable?
Yes, legalize and give amnesty to 11-30 million illegals. They bring their relatives legally to the US add a x3 factor. That's between 33 and 90 million new citizens. Think we can handle that in the US today?
William and Pflunky
ReplyDeleteMy thanks for your thought provoking replies.
William asks the difficult question and makes the pertinent observation, to which I have difficulty in supplying a reply which is not patronising or trite. I shall try to respond by taking refuge in your history. When beginning a study of this history my first hero was Alexander Hamilton, I learned to hate Aaron Burr until I read some of the prose written by Jefferson, here was a man prepared not only for progress and consolidation of the new nation, he wanted the nation to push the government in the direction best suited to the needs of the people. Jefferson revered the constitution and to him it was not set in stone but a basis upon which nationhood would mature and become ever stronger. Quote: The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so that it does not become the former. The exact wording may differ slightly as I am writing from memory.
Jefferson also advocated that if the system of government was not suitable to the people, the people should tear it down and replace the government with another. (I suspect every grade school kid in your country could offer the quote verbatim if asked.
So now to the question from William. I do not want to see the constitution torn up, I do not want to see wholesale changes but I suggest that modifications to suit the times and the citizens who now live under the constitution would not be the end of the world. I use as an example my favorite gripe. The second is so right for the times (1788) that it was then one of the most important additions to the original document. This amendment has remained intact for 226 years and the needs of the nation have changed. No longer is there a requirement for a militia; no longer are the arms available to the citizens required for the defense of his person or his nation. Modern arms are designed not simply for killing, but for more efficient killing. In the hands of the wrong people the second now provides a means by which the citizens of America can inflict untold death and misery to fellow citizens who also live under and claim protection of that same constitution.
You see William; I propose changes for the betterment of the country which I consider to be the greatest in the world, certainly the savior of the world since 1945. No you are not perfect; your star will fade as have the stars of all major empires and economies throughout history. A few minor changes to the constitution now could prolong the period of greatness.
Pflunky, your concern appears to be with illegals taking away jobs from your own citizens.( I may have misunderstood you).We have the same problem in that our government ( with an unemployment rate of almost six percent) allows the business world to bring in specialized workers on a 457 visa system. That means that if I have an American friend who can perform some function in my business I can tell the government there are no available Australians to perform the same job. I get a visa for my friend and he comes to work for me. As you can see, Pflunky, if I can demonstrate a need for some one to cook beans and grits (whatever they are) and you can perform the culinary magic, you have a job in Aussie!!
Now 9.15 are here and I hear noises from the kitchen area to the effect I have to go shopping and I must now stop talking to myself. Perhaps good advice, be safe my friends,
Cheers from Aussie
King we have a little different problem in employment. Illegals come here they get fake paperwork and they seek employment. As for your better jobs we intentionally recruit and allow immigration of certain classes of those workers and it is highly controlled in numbers. No our illegal employment problem is different. In our country the first thing needed to obtain employment is a social security card. There is a whole cottage industry in the shadow economy that William speaks of that produces these documents for a pretty small fee about $60 last I heard. And the fakes are usually very good although I have seen some that are not. Second an illegal needs a green card,(permanent resident card). These are issued by the immigration service and when legally obtain denote that the individual has been cleared for residency in the US and is eligible to work. These again are produced as fakes and can be obtained for maybe a couple hundred bucks. Have I hired illegals in my career. Probably and here's how that could happen. When we employed people in the past what is called an I9 report had to be filled out by hand. This is where you took the paperwork presented by the hire and recoded numbers expiration dates etc. They signed that the papers were real and they could be hired. Our responsibility at that time was to determine if the paper work presented appeared to be official and pertained to the person presenting it. The fakes were good enough to pass muster in most instances. We did have a crude computer program that checked Social security numbers but it only checked that they were formatted correctly which isn't hard to do. What my current company did was offer employment applications only in English figuring that someone with limited English skills wouldn't be able to complete the application and many could not. One company I worked for did review all hires yearly and anyone they questioned had to be released. Here in the State of North Carolina we now have what is called EVerify. We are now required by NC law to put all new hires through the EVerify system. This system will instantaneously tell you if an applicant is approved to work in the US. But this system also has problems. #1 it is only required in by law in 6 states. 5 others require it only in public employment. several actually discourage it's use. #2. Even under Everify you cannot refuse employment based on nationality or citizenship status. For example during an interview with a perspective employee I cannot ask the question "are you legal"? If I do ask and I don't hire the person based only on that question, I am in violation of federal labor laws. So I go into some hires completely blind because I cannot refuse to hire based on citizenship, and my state does have a lot of second generation Latinos who are American citizens although both parents are illegals. That is the exact reason I cannot pre screen applicants in EVerify. So once hired we get to orientation day. I am presented documents enter them into the system and I get a response in less then a minute. If a person comes back unauthorized I still cannot release them. The system will allow me to print out paperwork that I give the person and they have 3 business days to contest the everify results and I must let them work during the appeals period.
DeleteThird problem, EVerify while although said to be 99% accurate still has only an accuracy rate of 46% in finding illegals appling for a job.
King militias are currently deterring illegal border crossings and drug cartel activities. Well armed militias are doing the job that our federal government refuses to do. More than ten independent militia groups are coordinating their efforts to protect property rights in Texas.
DeleteThe Second amendment shall stand King. Any other ideas?
The drug lords will cut your untrained militias down like rubber soldiers when they are ready to do so. Your "militias" are playing with fire.
DeleteMuch better to do nothing.
DeleteA special gift from your do nothing government.
Yes the last great leader was also a do nothing leader.
William, In support of your defense of the second you mention the Militia along your southern Boundaries. This of course is not reported here and I was unable for a day or so to verify your claim. Today I have received links to the San Antonio Express Newshttp://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Photos-show-border-militias-moving-across-Texas-5647487.php. The militia as you call them are wearing masks, camouflage and tactical gear and carrying semi automatic weapons. The article (one of several I have) also confirms the groups are illegal and are acting despite warnings from U.S. Customs and Border Protection and state lawmakers.
DeleteSo William, is this the best defense you can mount in defense of the second? You ask if I have any other ideas but perhaps we should explore this a little further. I do not doubt your sincerity but it would be preferable if you refuted my argument with verifiable facts rather than Gun Lobby propaganda.
Cheers from Aussie and I apologize for the delay in responding to your post., distance and time differences make life hell at times.
There is nothing illegal about defending private property King. We have patriots here who don't particularly care what the federal government calls them. The feckless administration would rather comment on lawful defense of our country than actually take steps to solve the problem.
DeleteAs far as cammo, guns, and masks,,well yeah,, what's your point? They are there to get the job done not to be lauded for looting stores or marching for "justice."
King, we own our country. We don't have a queen telling us how to defend it.
William again my thanks.
DeleteYour post deserves attention so here goes. I have never claimed that it is illegal to defend private property; I would in fact claim the reverse. Your patriots with their distain for the federal government seem to me to be a perfect description of vigilantes. The way to make the administration conform to your wishes is to change the administration, if enough think as you do; change is not only possible it is inevitable. (Jefferson)
You ask what my point re the dress guns and masks is. Well I suggest that if you cannot understand that, you would be a most dangerous man if you were permitted to own a firearm. Your final point concerning the Queen of England telling us what to do! This about as ludicrous as me claiming that Madison was the sole author of the second and that you owe the British for the conception of that amendment, because it has its genesis in English common law ( which by the way it did).
William my friend read the posts of Stormy and Lou which have appeared overnight (our time). This debate is probably about to end, we must thank Stormy for starting the ball and the contributions of everyone has been enlightening. I wish I had visited your country, my academic studies give me a lot of facts and figures but I have no real “feel” for the nation. As you wish to see again the ideals of the founders, I wish to see my friend’s safe in their homes and their schools. I can look across the water from my office window and can see the small area of land on which a deranged nuttier mindlessly slaughtered 33 men woman and children with a high powered rifle just a few years ago. Now we have strict gun laws and although we can all own a firearm with limited power, there are many safeguards against illegal use.
Cheers from Aussie.
King, as to your fast and loose use of the term vigilante I offer reference to some of our hero's. These out of the box fighters were in many way's the forerunners to today's guerilla forces battling in their own ways to maintain freedom for their families and associates. Each one and their associates we can never repay.
DeleteFrancis Marion the Swamp Fox
Ethan Allen and the Green mountain boys
Sitting Bull
In our politically correct age God forbid a freedom fighter dons a scarf, a headdress, mask, or armor protection. The topic concerns the increase in police authority. I strongly doubt that Francis Marion ever asked for permission.
William my thanks but I fail to see the relevance. These individuals became notorious during the conflict long before the second amendment was ratified. Their story has no relevance to the constitution apart from of course assisting in the victory so that a constitution could be written. I note that the constitution was written and sent for ratification before the Bill of Rights was drafted. The Bill of rights is not an afterthought, as often alleged by foreigners but a necessity forced on the legislators in order to gain the majority of votes in order to ratify the constitution. The Anti Federalists were responsible for the proposed amendments and from memory Madison offered over thirty amendments to congress in 1789. Eventually the number was reduced to 12 and ten were passed and ratified. Now this is grade school stuff and I am telling you nothing you do not already know.
DeleteWe do appear to be in conflict however in our understanding of the present degree of relevance of the second. I have carefully offered a series of objections to the amendment together with various suggestions. You, unfortunately appear to refuse to acknowledge my points and instead insist on introducing non relevant material from pre revolutionary war days. Can you please try to address the specific points I have made in my post of 04 September. We are living, not in 1788 but in 2015.People have changed, guns have changed and attitudes towards civilized living have changed. Remember please, the man who exercises his rights to carry a gun and then uses the gun in what he considers a lawful manner, is revoking the rights of law abiding citizen he shoots. A citizen is not a policeman William and a life taken can never be returned whatever the constitution may say.
King our boarders are under attack, North and South. We have an administration that sends 46 FBI agents to investigate a single policing incident in the center of our nation but who can't acknowledge and seriously respond to hundreds of thousands illegally migrating into our heartland. Your incessant fetish regarding the upgrading of weapons proves the balanced equation. The cartels and other criminals can get any available advanced weaponry, why oh why shouldn't a citizen have the same ability to obtain what he needs to protect his life and property?
DeleteThe need for serious arms and militias becomes apparent when ranchers cannot depend on the central planners to secure their property. These people are not the type to be overrun without response like many sheep in so many parts of the world today. Re: Libya, Syria, Iraq, Crimea, Ukraine,,,(England, France, Netherlands,,,,,) Therefore my reference to Sitting Bull above.
You deflect my arguments pertaining to our heritage of defending ourselves. Long prior to the Constitution and Bill of Rights the cast was set as to what type of Republic we were to form. The Swamp Fox fought the British overlords, Ethan Allen the New York usurpers.
Our First is under constant attack from those who would redefine words and promote socialized solutions. The Second has been eroded by City, State, and Federal compromises that have lead to killing fields in our meanest streets (See Obama's hometown Chicago, their strict gun laws, and their homicide rate).
King, we have 310 million people and counting. We have weapons in the hands of every sort of individual, in every sort of locale. Using your term ,,,yes we have a few "nutters" in our midst. The Second is there to protect our lives and private property,,,but mostly it is there to protect us from the type of soft tyranny we are experiencing presently from within.
Worry about your own Rights.
1773-2009
William
DeleteMy thanks once again. I guess we have done this subject to death and if nothing else, we understand each others opinions the better for the experience; I ask for no more than this.
Sometime an extended debate on the Federalist Papers would be instructive and for a bit of light relief, a debate as to the morality of James Munroe and his associates in the Reynolds affair. Was Hamilton treated badly and was Munroe acting without malice? The difference in standards of morality then and now would cloud our contemporary judgment perhaps. In any case, thanks for the exchanges
Cheers from Aussie
My pleasure.
DeleteI had typed out a long post, but had failed to log in. When I hit publish, the whole thing disappeared! I will try again:
ReplyDeleteThis has been an interesting discussion on illegal immigration. Kingston- thanks for the Australian perspective. I think that you guys are on the right track. I wish we had as much resolve. I grew up in towns all across Texas. I was accustomed to going to school with a majority of people of Mexican descent when I lived in south Texas. These southern towns still looked like America back then. When I moved to the northern part of the state, I was surprised to see very few Mexican families. We started noticing the groups of Mexican men in some convenience store parking lots, waiting on day labor jobs. All of the sudden the convenience stores turned into carniceras and panderias. The other stores in the area started looking like a dirty border town. We had Spanish language broadcasting and had to offer ballots in Spanish. There was a reason that our federal government allowed this huge transformation of our communities to happen. Maybe it was that they were just overwhelmed. Maybe the citizens didn't protest enough. Maybe it was because the business lobbies padded the pockets of our DC elite because they wanted new customers on one hand and cheap, hard working labor on the other. Maybe the federal government needed a large number of new citizens to pay taxes into our entitlement programs to give them, and indeed the entire federal government, the illusion of solvency. There is a whole lot of federal debt bought by these programs every year.
The original intent of this post, however, was to discuss the juxtaposition of our loss of freedoms in the name of security and our unwillingness to secure our southern border which really offers a true security threat. A couple of months ago Max challenged me on a statement I made about us allowing conditions to exist in our southern neighbor's countries that would motivate parents to send their unaccompanied children on a perilous journey northward in hopes that they would have a secure future. I didn't answer him at the time because I started thinking about how we couldn't even solve our own problems with street gangs and poverty. The difference now is that this constant stream of desperate people offers the perfect cover for islamist extremists who are desperate to make their evil religious points.
We have learned that we'd better not protest too much against the authority of the government or we will be met by armored vehicles, automatic weapons, and storm troopers. Our young men can't make it through their wilder years without an obligatory date in court and a resultant criminal record. We are closely watched by the amazing technology of today. We seem to have a pretty good handle on controlling our own citizenry, but we allow conditions to exist where people from the outside can disrupt our security.
We are no longer the home of the free; we are the home of the secure. We have traded our freedoms for financial security as well as physical security. I'd say that I'm pissed off that our government is not putting out enough effort to secure my security on the southern border, but I don't want any trouble, you know, with the big boys in DC......hee, hee, as a matter of fact, just forget what I said before Mr. NSA man, I was just, you know, blabbing about things like I have been known to do.....it doesn't mean anything....
The yelling and screaming continues. The problem with people in the US is their lack of or misunderstanding of the problem with illegal immigration. The direct impacts are easy, the indirect impacts not so easy.
DeleteToday, illegal immigration is largely a regional issue which impacts the southwest immensely while the impact to the rest of the country, not so much.
1. Cost of education in the West is immense and detrimental to citizens as they divert much needed dollars to bilingual programs. People then wonder why our schools fail our children.
2. Illegals come to the US have American citizen children who are eligible for welfare as the illegal parents work for minimum wage or slightly above.
3. Jobs become difficult for citizens as our teens compete for the same jobs as illegals.
4. Income disparity increases as wages are depressed as the influx provides a ready, willing, never ending supply of entry level workers.
5. Illegals bringing their children, dreamers, now can compete in the workforce legally increasing unemployment. People say, it not that many people. The US and no one here has a clue how many there are.
6. The communities become a more divided community, Spanish speaking and English. Last year I went into a Walmart and they had Spanish and English speaking lines for check out. IS this what we really want in America? Lowes already offers English/Spanish signs in all their stores.
7. Bilingual ballots are now the law in several areas of the west. Please tell me there is no voter fraud. Every immigrant before becoming a US citizen musty be able to read and write English. If that's the case, why the bilingual ballot.
The list is endless.
Amnesty for all.
Today it's unknown how many illegals reside in the US. Your government says 11 million people. That number has been used since before 2000. Probably closed to 30 or more million. Would a 10% increase alarm American citizens? As citizens, they would be able to bring their relatives to the US legally. A 3 to 1 ration would increase our population by 30 or more percent. Imagine the impact to our schools. The Federal government doesn't care as schools are a local issue. Imagine the impact to our safety net. Today in our city schools, largely Hispanic they have a 50% graduation rate vs. a 97% graduation rate in the surrounding suburbs. How many more can we absorb before the collapse of local services?
Imagine making the dreamers citizens. They in turn could sponsor the very people who broke our laws to bring them to the US and make them citizens. What a reward for breaking our laws.
The recent influx of children from Central America, DACA signed by Obama allows them to stay in the US, One article stated it will take up to 4-5 years before a hearing and Obama signed the executive order allowing it. The children up to 31 years old, mostly older teens a free pass to roam the US.
As to open borders, that will end when the terrorist attacks begin originating from illegal border crossing. Not a minute before. Perhaps it's time to enforce the border with American soldiers as Mexico does.
Imagine Americans crossing the Mexican border illegally, instant jail when caught and your not released until after your court date if then.
Perhaps people in the US will wake up when their community is impacted by the invasion from the south.
Report: Immigration court backlog keeps growing
Delete.
Associated Press By ALICIA A. CALDWELLSep 5, 2014 6:23 PM
WASHINGTON (AP) — The backlog of pending deportation cases in federal immigration court has risen to nearly 400,000 amid a crush of tens of thousands of unaccompanied children and families caught crossing the Mexican border illegally this year, according an analysis of court data released Friday.
The Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University said in its latest report that as of the end of July, 396,552 cases were pending in the Justice Department's 59 immigration courts. TRAC collects and studies a variety of federal prosecution records.
The backlog has grown by more than 75,000 cases since the start of the budget year in October, according to TRAC.
The Executive Office for Immigration Review, the Justice Department agency that operates immigration courts, said Friday its records show a caseload of 391,243 pending cases as of July 31. An agency spokeswoman said the methodology TRAC uses to analyze court data may be different than the methods used by the government.
Since Oct. 1 the Homeland Security Department has reported that more than 66,000 unaccompanied child immigrants, mostly from Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala, have been caught crossing the Mexican border illegally. More than 66,000 additional immigrants traveling as families, mostly mothers and young children from Central America, have also been caught.
Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson has said that all of the immigrants caught crossing the border would face deportation hearings.
The TRAC report shows that the largest backlogs are in immigration courts in California, Texas and New York.
The large and growing court backlog has led to yearslong waits for immigration cases to be completed. Earlier this year, the Justice Department announced plans to move cases of unaccompanied immigrant children to the top of the docket.
___
TX Border Rancher: Cartels Are Taking Over Open US Border – Politicians Are Lying (Video)Posted by Jim Hoft on Friday, September 5, 2014, 8:48 AM
DeleteRanchers along the Texas border with Mexico are in fear for their lives and the lives of their families.
The Mexican drug cartels are taking over the border.
Texas border rancher Cuban “Rusty” Monsees describes toOathkeepers how Mexican drug cartels are taking over Texas border ranches. Monsees says the cartels are using death threats, assault, and attempted murder to drive ranchers and their families off of their land.
Rancher Monsees says there are trails all over the place down by the border.
“We get kids. We get adults. The cartel is bringing across, importing people from as far away as the Mediterranean. I’ve talked to agents and they picked up some characters from Somalia, Iran, Iraq, Syria… anything that you can think of these agents are having to deal with.”
Rusty says politicians are are lying to the American public about the situation. Rancher Monsees says the border is wide open.