We have thousands of Central American children streaming across our borders. These kids face a perilous journey with many chances for warping their sense of reality or just plain death. What would make their parents think this is a good idea? What policies of our own government have shaped their decision making? The USA has been lax with our enforcement of our immigration laws for many decades now. We have allowed our border states to be overrun with a highly dependent class of non-citizens. These folks are just seeking a reasonable opportunity to make a living and I have nothing against these individuals. The problem is that we are allowing the governments of their countries to get away with corruption and disorder to the point that honest citizens have to escape. We have been collecting the best and brightest of the Latin American population for more than 30 years. How will they ever have a chance to turn this situation around? How many of these people can we collect under our current hands-over-face policy before our whole system collapses?
What other country in this world would allow this invasion?
Why would they do that? The countries of central America with the exception of Panama are basically corrupt failed states. Honduras has the highest murder rate per capita in the world. So yes those who honestly want better for their children are sending them to the border. And coyotes are happy to take them for a huge sum of money. It's hard to tell how long parents save for this endeavor. But they are not unlike our ancestors who left a warring Europe, who left a religiously intolerant Europe to make a dangerous journey to try to find something better, tolerance, peace, opportunity. Yes it was easier to get into the country legally back then but all the same reasons still exist to want to leave a place of ones birth and make whatever journey necessary to become an American. It is one of the best places on earth to live and one of the easiest (legally or not) to get into. For all the problems illegal immigration causes we should feel fortunate that our problem is Hispanics, a generally peaceful and industrious people. Europe has to contend with a lot worse as many radical islamists choose Europe as a place to go.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/10/worlds-highest-murder-rates_n_5125188.html
Notice how many central American countries have made this list.
Failed states all of them. They may have legitimate recognized governments, but those governments are weak and powerless against the gangs and cartels that actually control them. It is a sad situation and right at our border. I wonder sometimes if we could have done things differently in the past so that our entire hemisphere could have been prosperous, free and advancing. I look at Canada who has advanced with us and sometimes lament Mexico our other neighbor and wonder why our way of life didn't spill over into that country as well, and what we could have done throughout history to bring that country along with us. Geographically Mexico is part of the North American continent and how much different would things have been if they could have advanced in lock step with the other two countries.
I agree these folks are peaceful and industrious for the most part and we could have it worse. There is a reason that we have allowed this influx of illegal immigrants. Max may have hit on the answer with a simple cost benefit analysis. I wonder though, that maybe we needed the huge increase in young, working citizens to prop up our entitlement programs as the baby boomers become dependent on them.
DeleteTwo statements in this post hook me, "The USA has been lax with our enforcement of our immigration laws for many decades now" and "The problem is that we are allowing the governments of their countries to get away with corruption and disorder to the point that honest citizens have to escape."
ReplyDeleteWhile I admittedly have a left of center outlook on many social issues, a much bigger part of my outlook is assessing cost. Everything in life has a cost and this is inescapable. The people who are most losing their shit and their minds over a Southern Invasion speak as if we could spend 5 trillion dollars a year on sealing the southern border and if so much as one stinking, Spanish speaking, bean eating, welfare scamming job stealer makes it across, we haven't spend enough. We haven't had lax policies, we've had very calculated policies that balanced how much we want to spend militarizing the border, how much we want to spend for our produce and so on. we've spent 90 billion dollars over ten years on border security. I'm not without an understanding of why people are in a spittle flying outrage over this, but I don't understand what they want. Right now, of course, we have the lawless black guy in the white house who is single handedly destroying the country from within, and his open defiance and totalitarian stance to circumvent a weak John Boehnor is a horror the likes of which humanity has never witnessed. But it's reality. At some point, an attempt must be made to accept reality and ask adult questions like, "How much money are we willing to throw at this every year?, At what point are we spending more than we saving? How much militarization and terror raids are we going to tolerate in order to keep out the evil brown man?"
The second statement, "The problem is that we are allowing the governments of their countries to get away with corruption and disorder to the point that honest citizens have to escape." is head scratching. Are we really ALLOWING anything? For decades now, we have preached a lot of shit to the world that we do not follow in our borders. We readily denounce thugs who steal the political process, while in this country, the buying of democracy is labeled as free speech by our theocratic "Assembly of Experts" on the SCOTUS. By and large, we could really care less about what happens south of the border unless it involves oil or other resources that we need. Again, it is about cost and this is how the world works. When we can spread freedom and democracy as a byproduct of getting our needs met, so much the better. When it comes to resources we need, however, we will support whoever we need to in order to ensure the supply of them never stops. We will get involved if our supply is threatened. This may not be polite to say, but it is reality. No matter who is POTUS, the one thing that drives most of their action is protecting our empire. The politics of it is pretty much just a side show.
What is the logical end to allowing nearly unlimited and uncontrolled illegal immigration? Why don't we allow this invasion into our country from Africa or Asia? The new immigrants don't bring much purchasing power with them. Is our economy and our government strong enough to get these folks on their feet?
DeleteA few illegals, no problem. Millions and we change the culture of the US.
DeleteMany illegals today make money and send it home. Last study I read, Mexico has 6 billion a year sent from the US to Mexico. Think they want that to end? A big boost to their economy.
For some unknown reason, people flooding across the southern border is ok. A ship load of Asians, not so great.
What will it take to wake up Washington? A bunch of terrorists entering via the southern border blowing up the US?
I guess, I respectfully disagree with the premise that we are allowing unlimited and uncontrolled illegal immigration. Intentionally or not, you are making it sound like someone can just hop on a bicycle, ride to America and start collecting the free shit. If you agree above that they are generally peaceful and industrious, it would sound to me like you are making a case for why they should be allowed to stay. I watched a thing on Maddow's show tonight where some people in California stood on the road and blocked homeland security buses from entering a facility there. Some fat, ugly, white chick with a US Flag style shirt was leading a bullhorn chant of "Not our problem, Not our problem." That is a prevalent attitude today.
DeleteAgain, my thought goes to cost. To us, the world is just an oyster to pluck good stuff from and a reservoir to dump all the crap we don't want into. I don't think the lack of Democracy in South America is on us to solve, per se, but we haven't helped matters much with our passion for drugs, oil and timber. We want to live by these fabulous principles of the founding fathers and God, I guess, but we are more than willing to do business with those who don't. People aren't just coming here for economics, they are fleeing war zone like conditions. There is no easy solution. I took a look at wiki and some other sites, and we DO allow a lot of people in from China, India and the Philippines. A logical end I suppose is that the descendent's of the white people who took this country away from the Native Americans will lose their majority. considering all the stupid shit we spend trillions on, I don't believe the number of people who make it across the border are bankrupting us.
We have discussed the underground economy on this site many times. We have debated the number of people off the grid, the unaccounted for.
DeleteMany who are presently being dropped at bus stations by our enforcement agencies have relations with drug cartels, many as a form of indentured servants. Spreading throughout our nation upon the siren call of puppet Obama. Blending seamlessly into the fabric while having forced and unforced devotions that lie elsewhere.
I know what we would have done in the past when we were a real nation with real leaders. I know what we will not do now.
What we did in the past William is allow the flow a great as it is now. And one who you would consider a "real leader" Ronald Reagan gave blanket amnesty to the first 15 million which encouraged the second 15 million to make the journey. And while you limit your anger to Mexico this latest influx is Central American.
DeleteHonduras is just coming out from under a corrupt president Roberto Micheletti who gained the position through a coup de tat and was supported by many Republicans in our congress. he turned Honduras into a gang riddled drug infested blood bath with the highest murder rate in the world.
El Salvador has had ongoing problems since 1960 and enjoys the 2nd highest murder rate.
For years the corrupt dictators of Guatemala were financial and politically supported by The United Fruit Company (Chiquita).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company
We supported Manuel Noriega for years until his illicit activities were uncovered.
We helped overthrow Daniel Ortega/Sandinistas in Nicaragua and what was installed was more repressive. Ortega is back in charge in another wasted American effort.
So yes Max we did a lot to help create the mess that is Central America today.
Most of these people like our forefathers come here with nothing. They work hard and yes they send money home but they spend a lot here to live. Most have two jobs. One to foot their bills here and one to send money home. I am sure that the same happened in the mid to late 1800's with the influx of Germans Irish and eastern Europeans that hit our shores. This novel idea of stopping at the first available location to sign up for food stamps and government assistance is a farce. You can't get those things without a legal social security number. So those things are not obtained until the first American born child comes. These are desperate people looking for a way out of the turmoil that is their homeland. Our ancestors did exactly the same thing. The difference is we had a Castle Garden and Ellis Island to register them and help them along their journey. They worked cheap and took American jobs. America was expanding rapidly so we didn't care much like the nineties when the computer revolution sucked up Americans into that field so we welcomed the latino to cook our restaurant food, wash the dishes, cut our grass and construct and paint all the new shit we were building. Now we have fallen on hard times we have a new boogey man much like our ancestors became in other recessions when Americans decided they would do anything for a dollar. Except this time Americans still won't do anything for a living. None of you are in the lowliest business on the planet restaurants. I am. Americans want to be servers otherwise they ain't coming.
So which is it rick? Do you want to sterilize these people or make them full blown citizens? Or maybe make them full blown citizens then sterilize them?
DeleteKrauthammer: "If Fences Don't Work, Why Is There One Around The White House?"
William stay out of the conversation between lou and I obviously it is over your head. I made no mention to sterilize anyone coming into the US. I asked lou if it was a solution to the overpopulation in the world. Third world countries contribute more then their share to population increases and pollution. But we don't hold them accountable.
DeleteShould we allow those that cross our southern border to stay, make them citizens? Clearly it appears the nations to the south are US as a dumping ground unloading those that cost them. If you say yes, we should be compassionate and let the 11-30 million illegals stay, yes we should let the latest wave of illegals stay, what about the rest of the world? Why not let the people with aids in Africa come to the US and give them amnesty. Let the people from the middle east come to the US and give them amnesty. Open the doors, why should the people that can walk here have priority over the world. Why are they special?
ReplyDeleteAs to the Americans don't want to work crap, so what. Take away the incentive, free, and guess what, like in the past, they will go to work. Why would anyone with any common sense collecting UE benefits, SNAP benefits, utilities benefits, subsidized housing, etc., work and lose some of the free? In the mean time, we subsidize people not to work, subsidize people to come to the US illegally to work. We are over run with entry level workers and demand minimum wage be legislated higher.
Arguably, in the name of a free market and profit, we have also taken away the incentive to work. Likely, my "common man" theme as William calls it will be dismissed here, but we've made a decision to alienate a lot of people who do work hard and tell them through their paystub that they aren't part of the team. You believe the benefits are so juicy that we are encouraging people to not work. I would counter that the salary business is willing to pay people has fallen so sharply that they have made SNAP benefits almost comparable.
DeleteWe have an enormous amount of people who sadly are not smart enough to help you build cell towers and make a 100k. I don't believe it is for lack of motivation. We could redistribute the tax liability by making less profit and paying more in wages. We've decided we don't want that. The stories of workers at Walmart working nearly full time while collecting benefits can't all be bullshit, but that's another choice we have made that those of us who do buy shit, want it cheap regardless of who is harmed by that decision. Generally, the right blames the government and of course, Obama for making everything worse. I spread the blame out quite a bit further. As a nation, we simply don't want to pay a fair price for anything and when we get an unintended consequence, we just look for a scapegoat to put it on. While we bitch about how many people are coming across our border, I think once in awhile we should stop and have a little gratitude that we don't have the kind of refugee situation (yet) that they do in Africa, and parts of the middle east. Of course, as American's we deserve better because God said so, but I still think we could be a little more objective about the matter
Well Louman in the eighties that is exactly what we did, giving encouragement to those that followed to get here start a life and hope it happens again.
ReplyDelete"Clearly it appears the nations to the south are US as a dumping ground unloading those that cost them." lou part of your problem here is that you don't understand the immigrant. They are not the ones who are costing their countries, they are more like the good people, the majority, who are tired of living hand to mouth with no prospect for anything else in their home countries. They are no different then our ancestors especially the ones from the 1800's which we all have. They came seeking something better. They come seeking opportunities that the government of their home countries either will not or cannot give them. It is failed governments lou not failed people who are causing this problem.
In the past you wrote of your business. Jobs paying what 80 grand 120 grand? Obviously these were jobs that took a great skill set, knowledge and education. So my comment is what makes you such the expert on who will work and who won't on the bottom of the ladder? See lou Americans are lazy to an extent. Americans in a position that they really don't want are also very undependable. Yes Lou it's true first hand knowledge because it is a part of my work life. What's your recent experience with the unskilled American worker? Um hum you don't have any. You only have an opinion.
Rick, you are wrong, I understand very well the mindset of illegals. The cross the border is search of work, possibly some a better life. Illegals send 6 billion dollars a year to Mexico in wages. As big as their tourist industry. The Mexican government do not want the people to return to Mexico. I clearly don't care why they are here as long as 1 US citizen cannot find a job. The illegals failed government isn't my problem, your problem or this countries problem. They are a sovereign nation. The best thing would be to round up the illegals with their families and send them home. Get a grip on our employment issues and then allow some back into the country on a work visa. Your bleeding heart is wonderful but economic suicide. Why is it that only people from the south are allowed unfettered access to the US? Open the gates to China and have them enter the country in unabated numbers, it's only fair.
ReplyDeleteAs to the kids, think about it Rick. Kids, they didn't find their way to the Mexican border from Honduras with out help. The Mexican government is complicit in getting the kids out of Mexico and into the US as they don't want them either.
As to the rest of your history lesson, when do Americans come first? We allowed illegals into the country, many are working while 92 million Americans remain unemployed by choice or circumstance. Why should this country a;low any unskilled worker into the US? It causes wage stagnation as supply and demand is out the window with an over supply of entry level workers. You want the illegals then bitch about raising the minimum wage. Can't have it both ways.
As to my business, it was what the market would bare. You pay the going rate. FYI, I also worked in the restaurant business and know exactly what people will do if necessary. I work on and off at my sisters restaurant minimum wage and know what they will and will not do. Why should anyone work when they have UE benefits, food benefits, utility assistance, rent assistance? YOUR government that you love has made it all possible, a permanent class of unemployed, unmotivated people, all with their hand out. Maybe it's time to go back to the Clinton model, limited benefits and time on benefits. In this case your prez screwed everyone with the changes that were attached to the stimulus package.
Had a new sprinkler system installed 3 weeks ago. Cost me more for the American crew, it was worth it. Working on the Kitchen next and expect to pay more for American labor. There are few roofing companies that employ citizens, paid more for that too.
And Rick all you have is your opinion and little interface with illegals. We deal with them everyday.
"The best thing would be to round up the illegals with their families and send them home."
DeleteHow would we do this? Strap parachutes on them and kick them out of planes? Put them on catapults and fling them back over the wall as a message to the rest of what will happen? It sounds great but it is so unworkable. What do we do when and if the Mexicans bar the road the block our homeland security buses from driving into Mexico while someone on the bus whack them with sticks until they get off? It's just not that simple. Wise cracks aside, what is your honest plan to round them up and deposit them into a country you believe doesn't want them?
Buses seem popular these days.
DeleteUnworkable if you don't want to do it.
And we should let them remain here displacing American citizens?
How do we send them home Max? We park a hospital ship, three cruise ships, and an air craft carrier battle group in Houston. Round em up, load em up, ship em home, and dump em off with two weeks of rations.
DeleteAt the same time we publish notification that anyone else for any reason has one month to get themselves to Houston for a free trip home. After a month those remaining will face Federal prosecution with nice long vacations behind maximum security fences.
I call it the love boat solution.
I think you both keep missing a point. How do you physically take them into a country without permission to enter, drop them off, and come back out? So because they cross the border that gives us the right to disregard the sovereignty of another nation to take them back? And you want to just round them up and add them to the Mexican gangs that already rampant William? What do think it costs to lock them up? Again, cost versus reward does not work. Your boy Reagan promised us a "get tough" on crime approach would work. We now have 2 million people incarcerated. I'd say that approach hasn't worked.
DeleteYou guys want em gone, with an adamant, absolutist determination, but you have no cost effective solution. 90 billion dollars over ten years and we are going to keep throwing more money at the border. I believe at some point you have to say this is what we are going to spend and that's it.
Oh lou if only you knew. I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you about who has the most contact with illegals but I will tell you right unfront you have already lost.
DeleteOf course they will remain, political correctness demands we allow them to stay.
DeletePeople like yourself, oh the poor people without a concern for your fellow American, without a care about the cost to let them stay in the US.
The cost of educating the masses, healthcare for the masses, food stamps to feed them.
The entire mess is a pathetic example of what this country has become.
It's a world thing Lou there are very few political boundaries left. The whole world is becoming one with the exception of the nuts in the middle east who see things a totally different way. Lou I have a concern for my fellow Americans. But lou I can't make them get off their asses away from the video games in mom and dads basement and go get a job, work hard and be dependable citizens. That's not my job Lou nor is it yours. Our American youth have to get out and fight for their shot in life just like we did, me and you. Unfortunately lou they would rather wait on us to die and leave them wealth or sit on a computer trying to design an app that apple or google will scoop from them for a couple mil. That Lou is the reality that is American whether you agree or not whether you want to believe it or not. It is not an Obama thing it has been coming since the eighties.
DeleteI can't make them get off their asses away from the video games
DeleteBut you do not need to subsidize their existence with government benefits. That goes for kiddies as well as people who chose benefits over work. That's why Clinton signed work for benefits legislation which Obama suspended.