What you want to look at is chart #2. See all that flatlining in the bottom 4 quintiles. That my friend is the real America. That is where the working guys are, the vanishing middle class, the group paying the bills while the wealthy take their loopholes and skate by most of their tax burden, loopholes William not available to those bottom five (yes five the top quintile has some breaks but not nearly what those at the top have) because they don't make enough money. I'll bet that you don't fall into that top 5% do you but you support policies that continue to enrich them at the expense of the rest of us.
La ta da William you opened this conversation on the other thread by telling me how all boats were rising or have risen. Yes we all make more money today then 45 years ago. But in inflation adjusted dollars that's spendable cash my friend the bottom 4 quintiles where the majority of American workers/ households fall there has been no sustained or substantial gain for the average American workers. You can spin all you want about the Obama years which by the way are skewed because of the recession, but the fact remains that in real spendable income the Average worker has not seen a gain in your 45 year perspective. Everybody isn't going to make 100 200 300 grand a year there are just not enough of those jobs to be had. Most of America falls into the bottom 4 the average household income is about 50000 in today's world. It is only logical sense where the majority falls.
Perhaps we are reading chart number 3 differently Rick. I read a .41% real growth rate for the middle quintile. I frankly don't see how you can state "the fact remains that in real spendable income The Average worker has not seen a gain in your 45 year perspective."
Because that is cumulative growth, actual dollars. Chart 2 shows gains in inflation adjusted dollars. If you want to use chart 3 then you are saying that there has been no inflation in the US in 45 years and we both know that ain't true. As I said above, we all make more money, problem is we don't have more money to spend in todays world unless of course you fall in the top 5%. And again your .45% increase in 45 years computes to about $1 a year on 100,000 in income, it is laughable to keep making this point.
The nation’s capital is largely impervious to logic, and the tragic results are obvious for all to see.
Emotion and intention seem to have become the principal determinants of government policy. People are poor? Increase the minimum wage.
Not everyone can afford a home? Create a dozen housing subsidy programs.
Some people don’t have health insurance? Enact Medicaid, Medicare and the ACA.
There is an infinitesimal chance of something bad happening somewhere, somehow? Issue a regulation making everyone spend a lot of money and effort to ensure that it doesn’t.
Never mind the consequences, as long as the officials involved mean well and their ideas sound good. No need to detain our leaders on white horses. They have other crusades to lead.
This widespread inability to compare consequences to intentions is a basic problem of our elected officials.
The president throws out a decisive issue and the faithful pick it up and beat the drums diverting the nations attention away from problems Washington really doesn't want to think about.
Yo Rick, have you given all the employees at the restaurant a living wage yet? If it's so right, what's holding you back? The you first syndrome Liberals seem infected with?
All my people already make over 10 dollars an hour. That's where they start and everything else is merit and longevity based. They all understand that. When they want a raise we sit down and review their performance, set expectations and it is now in their hands.
Louman although you are being a smart ass as usual I am certainly glad you asked. All my people already make over 10 dollars an hour. That's where they start and everything else is merit and longevity based. They all understand that. When they want a raise we sit down and review their performance, set expectations and it is now in their hands. Isn't that about how you ran your business?
Rick, you didn't answer my question. What would a higher paid employee think and expect if a formerly lower paid employee was to gain an artificial pay increase?
When you base raises on the same criteria it would rarely happen William. We don't give artificial pay increases and if the minimum was to raise to say $10 an hour it's not a problem they all make above that already. If it raises to 15 all would get a raise except one employee. He is a cook who transferred in from NJ and makes quite a good living because of COLA in our company for certain areas of the country. He is in fact planning to move back to Jersey this summer because the COLA goes away after 18 months in an area where it isn't given or needed.
Look Rick, income inequity is a diversion... a way of further dividing this country. Their is no doubt that poverty is a problem and that we should work to address this problem but the attempt to destroy wealth because people are poor is only going to cause wealth to leave the country to protect itself. Much of the inordinate rise in income disparity at the top is governments incessant need to stick its nose into the markets and 'fix' things that, over time, only makes things worse.... Our health care system is a perfect example of that. Below is a story/example relayed by a guy to show that it isn't inequity that is the problem but poverty.
Now, without giving too much personal information away, my own annual salary is over seven times the average poverty-level income in the United States this year. To some that’s pretty unequal, and I can imagine that a person making only $11,490 a year with no other source of income probably feels pretty bad-off compared to me. But consider that the annual income Bill Gates, according to this website, is about $3.7 billion. That’s $3.7 billion dollars a year! So Gates’s annual income is more than 43,500 times my own. That’s monstrously unequal by almost anyone’s standard. But it’s funny—maybe it’s just me, but I don’t feel oppressed by that fact at all. What does that mean?
I think it means that what most of us object to is not income inequality per se (although I know some people do) but poverty. So the question becomes: What is the best way to fight poverty?
Scott, My old Grandpa could barely read or write, he lived all his life in Dorset UK as a farm worker. He and his wife raised a large family and eventually owned their own cottage. Grandpa was a simple and practical man, he lived as so many others did; never in debit and never wealthy. He was wont to say about wealth “To be content, all a man needs is three meals a day and half a bed" As we have chased position and wealth all our working lives, the old values look attractive as we get near the end of our existence.
Yes Scott there are going to be wealthy people there are going to be poor people but you missed the point. The chart spans more then just poor people in the bottom 4 quintiles you have the vast majority of America workers. I would fall between the 2nd quintile and the top quintile but only because we both work and both have good paying jobs. Remember this is household income. Individually we would both fall between the Middle quintile and the 2nd quintile. Now I feel quite fortunate to be where I am and to have the partner I have who believes in working and producing equally as hard. But there are many people working hard their spouse may work what they can (especially if there are children it is very hard to have two well paying full time jobs going on) (remember the better the pay in today's world the more tied to the job you have to be the more responsibility you have to assume) so they fall in the 4th , middle or 2nd quintile. This is America my friend America is not the 5%. It is the bottom 4 quintiles where the majority of Americans fall, police, fire, teachers, construction workers, yes restaurant employees, mechanics, butchers, hair stylists, the military all the people who work hard every day serving others and this country.
"As we have chased position and wealth all our working lives, the old values look attractive as we get near the end of our existence."
I have a little plaque in my den that reads: (In German accent) “Ve Get Too Soon Oldt Undt Too Late Schmart.”… it helps me understand that I am now and always will be learning and that learning will change my perspective.
It is interesting however that you seem to equate ‘simple, practical and content’ with literacy. Perhaps that is what the modern world teaches us… to go for the golden ring and if you can’t reach it, you are somehow deficient. While it sounds sage that old values are only realized by old people, I think that a growing number of young people would disagree… I think a more youthful me would have disagreed with you as I never wanted a McMansion or a Maserati and urged my children to learn professions that would take care of them rather than one that feels good as a twenty year old because the vernier of civility is incredibly thin and things change for all but the most basic of necessities. I sometimes think that the best thing that has happened in America in quite a while has been the Bush and Obama administrations. Many young people are starting to see the need for fiscal prudence both for themselves and for their government. They aren’t stupid and they know that the bills come due one day. They want success for themselves but they don’t need the government to do it… Many young libertarians are very aligned with ‘right to work laws’ and the repeal of regulations and unions that stifle people and business. The point that I was making to Rick is that wealth and inequity are relative and that it isn’t as much of a problem as the politico would love to use as a motivator…
Your original contention was that real earnings for most Americans have been falling. I will agree with that to a point but the wonder of capitalism has a way of making things look differently than politicians would make them out to be. The real standards of living of people, including the poor are now and have always been on the rise.
We talk about the dignity of the poor yet fail to answer the question about what happened to the dramatic change of fortune for a huge percentage of the poor population right up to the Great Society and why we have made no improvement since...
I am gonna beat a dead horse to ya but here goes. The standard of living hasn't risen because everyone has been given enormous sums of money by their employer or in the case of the poor the government. Standards have risen because of Technology, yep I said it. We can produce goods and services at a clip that was only a dream even in the 1990's. Faster, cheaper, more efficiently, be it here or in China, Germany, automated whatever whereever
What you want to look at is chart #2. See all that flatlining in the bottom 4 quintiles.
ReplyDeleteThat my friend is the real America. That is where the working guys are, the vanishing middle class, the group paying the bills while the wealthy take their loopholes and skate by most of their tax burden, loopholes William not available to those bottom five (yes five the top quintile has some breaks but not nearly what those at the top have) because they don't make enough money. I'll bet that you don't fall into that top 5% do you but you support policies that continue to enrich them at the expense of the rest of us.
Chart three displays quite clearly how poorly all quintiles have done under Obama.
DeleteThe last box indicates that all quintiles have experienced real growth since
1967.
La ta da William you opened this conversation on the other thread by telling me how all boats were rising or have risen. Yes we all make more money today then 45 years ago. But in inflation adjusted dollars that's spendable cash my friend the bottom 4 quintiles where the majority of American workers/ households fall there has been no sustained or substantial gain for the average American workers. You can spin all you want about the Obama years which by the way are skewed because of the recession, but the fact remains that in real spendable income the Average worker has not seen a gain in your 45 year perspective. Everybody isn't going to make 100 200 300 grand a year there are just not enough of those jobs to be had. Most of America falls into the bottom 4 the average household income is about 50000 in today's world. It is only logical sense where the majority falls.
DeletePerhaps we are reading chart number 3 differently Rick. I read a .41% real growth rate for the middle quintile. I frankly don't see how you can state "the fact remains that in real spendable income The Average worker has not seen a gain in your 45 year perspective."
DeleteBecause that is cumulative growth, actual dollars. Chart 2 shows gains in inflation adjusted dollars. If you want to use chart 3 then you are saying that there has been no inflation in the US in 45 years and we both know that ain't true. As I said above, we all make more money, problem is we don't have more money to spend in todays world unless of course you fall in the top 5%. And again your .45% increase in 45 years computes to about $1 a year on 100,000 in income, it is laughable to keep making this point.
DeleteThe nation’s capital is largely impervious to logic, and the tragic results are obvious for all to see.
ReplyDeleteEmotion and intention seem to have become the principal determinants of government policy. People are poor? Increase the minimum wage.
Not everyone can afford a home? Create a dozen housing subsidy programs.
Some people don’t have health insurance? Enact Medicaid, Medicare and the ACA.
There is an infinitesimal chance of something bad happening somewhere, somehow? Issue a regulation making everyone spend a lot of money and effort to ensure that it doesn’t.
Never mind the consequences, as long as the officials involved mean well and their ideas sound good. No need to detain our leaders on white horses. They have other crusades to lead.
This widespread inability to compare consequences to intentions is a basic problem of our elected officials.
The president throws out a decisive issue and the faithful pick it up and beat the drums diverting the nations attention away from problems Washington really doesn't want to think about.
Yo Rick, have you given all the employees at the restaurant a living wage yet? If it's so right, what's holding you back? The you first syndrome Liberals seem infected with?
If rick were to raise his minimum wage earners up to Obama's $10.10/hour what would his existing $10/hour workers think? What would they want?
DeleteAnd if you raise them up to $13/hour, what would the existing $13/hour workers think? What would they want?
All my people already make over 10 dollars an hour. That's where they start and everything else is merit and longevity based. They all understand that. When they want a raise we sit down and review their performance, set expectations and it is now in their hands.
DeleteLouman although you are being a smart ass as usual I am certainly glad you asked. All my people already make over 10 dollars an hour. That's where they start and everything else is merit and longevity based. They all understand that. When they want a raise we sit down and review their performance, set expectations and it is now in their hands. Isn't that about how you ran your business?
DeleteRick, you didn't answer my question. What would a higher paid employee think and expect if a formerly lower paid employee was to gain an artificial pay increase?
DeleteWhen you base raises on the same criteria it would rarely happen William. We don't give artificial pay increases and if the minimum was to raise to say $10 an hour it's not a problem they all make above that already. If it raises to 15 all would get a raise except one employee. He is a cook who transferred in from NJ and makes quite a good living because of COLA in our company for certain areas of the country. He is in fact planning to move back to Jersey this summer because the COLA goes away after 18 months in an area where it isn't given or needed.
DeleteLook Rick, income inequity is a diversion... a way of further dividing this country. Their is no doubt that poverty is a problem and that we should work to address this problem but the attempt to destroy wealth because people are poor is only going to cause wealth to leave the country to protect itself. Much of the inordinate rise in income disparity at the top is governments incessant need to stick its nose into the markets and 'fix' things that, over time, only makes things worse.... Our health care system is a perfect example of that. Below is a story/example relayed by a guy to show that it isn't inequity that is the problem but poverty.
ReplyDeleteNow, without giving too much personal information away, my own annual salary is over seven times the average poverty-level income in the United States this year. To some that’s pretty unequal, and I can imagine that a person making only $11,490 a year with no other source of income probably feels pretty bad-off compared to me. But consider that the annual income Bill Gates, according to this website, is about $3.7 billion. That’s $3.7 billion dollars a year! So Gates’s annual income is more than 43,500 times my own. That’s monstrously unequal by almost anyone’s standard. But it’s funny—maybe it’s just me, but I don’t feel oppressed by that fact at all. What does that mean?
I think it means that what most of us object to is not income inequality per se (although I know some people do) but poverty. So the question becomes: What is the best way to fight poverty?
Scott,
DeleteMy old Grandpa could barely read or write, he lived all his life in Dorset UK as a farm worker. He and his wife raised a large family and eventually owned their own cottage. Grandpa was a simple and practical man, he lived as so many others did; never in debit and never wealthy. He was wont to say about wealth “To be content, all a man needs is three meals a day and half a bed"
As we have chased position and wealth all our working lives, the old values look attractive as we get near the end of our existence.
Yes Scott there are going to be wealthy people there are going to be poor people but you missed the point. The chart spans more then just poor people in the bottom 4 quintiles you have the vast majority of America workers. I would fall between the 2nd quintile and the top quintile but only because we both work and both have good paying jobs. Remember this is household income. Individually we would both fall between the Middle quintile and the 2nd quintile. Now I feel quite fortunate to be where I am and to have the partner I have who believes in working and producing equally as hard. But there are many people working hard their spouse may work what they can (especially if there are children it is very hard to have two well paying full time jobs going on) (remember the better the pay in today's world the more tied to the job you have to be the more responsibility you have to assume) so they fall in the 4th , middle or 2nd quintile. This is America my friend America is not the 5%. It is the bottom 4 quintiles where the majority of Americans fall, police, fire, teachers, construction workers, yes restaurant employees, mechanics, butchers, hair stylists, the military all the people who work hard every day serving others and this country.
DeleteKing,
Delete"As we have chased position and wealth all our working lives, the old values look attractive as we get near the end of our existence."
I have a little plaque in my den that reads: (In German accent) “Ve Get Too Soon Oldt Undt Too Late Schmart.”… it helps me understand that I am now and always will be learning and that learning will change my perspective.
It is interesting however that you seem to equate ‘simple, practical and content’ with literacy. Perhaps that is what the modern world teaches us… to go for the golden ring and if you can’t reach it, you are somehow deficient. While it sounds sage that old values are only realized by old people, I think that a growing number of young people would disagree… I think a more youthful me would have disagreed with you as I never wanted a McMansion or a Maserati and urged my children to learn professions that would take care of them rather than one that feels good as a twenty year old because the vernier of civility is incredibly thin and things change for all but the most basic of necessities. I sometimes think that the best thing that has happened in America in quite a while has been the Bush and Obama administrations. Many young people are starting to see the need for fiscal prudence both for themselves and for their government. They aren’t stupid and they know that the bills come due one day. They want success for themselves but they don’t need the government to do it… Many young libertarians are very aligned with ‘right to work laws’ and the repeal of regulations and unions that stifle people and business. The point that I was making to Rick is that wealth and inequity are relative and that it isn’t as much of a problem as the politico would love to use as a motivator…
Your original contention was that real earnings for most Americans have been falling. I will agree with that to a point but the wonder of capitalism has a way of making things look differently than politicians would make them out to be. The real standards of living of people, including the poor are now and have always been on the rise.
DeleteWe talk about the dignity of the poor yet fail to answer the question about what happened to the dramatic change of fortune for a huge percentage of the poor population right up to the Great Society and why we have made no improvement since...
http://www.american.com/archive/2008/july-august-magazine-contents/how-are-we-doing/
I am gonna beat a dead horse to ya but here goes. The standard of living hasn't risen because everyone has been given enormous sums of money by their employer or in the case of the poor the government. Standards have risen because of Technology, yep I said it. We can produce goods and services at a clip that was only a dream even in the 1990's. Faster, cheaper, more efficiently, be it here or in China, Germany, automated whatever whereever
Delete