Initial polling isn't showing a ton of outrage either though it does seem that Republicans were just fine with it under Bush but not so much under Obama and vice versa for Dems.
The public is largely uninformed. Under the Patriot Act, if someone is suspected of illicit activity, the FISA courts can issue secret warrants on the individual(s). What the NSA did is a blanket investigation on millions of individual records without any suspicion. For those on the left that thought GWB was abusing power should be outraged at the illegal power grab of Obama.
Gotta... we are not talking guilty or innocent, we are talking matters of degree. I would say that we have had the NSA up our back sides, certainly since WWII and the randomness of their information gathering has grown as technology has allowed... Carnivore is an example... started under Clinton, carnivore captured and held unfiltered data which was used to do specific searches (so they say). Carnivor ended in 2005 but you can bet that it only ended because a later and greater version came on line....
The fallacy in your argument Max is that since Bush collected information on Americans and Obama collected data on American's that they are equivalent. However, the scale and intrusiveness of what has occurred under Obama is much more massive. Don't take my word for it, take the word of others close to the action.
It's a similar argument that Liberals make about the Fast and the Furious. Whereas 8-10 guns crossed the border under Bush, over 2000 guns crossed under Obama. WHY? These are not equivalent actions either.
First, I actually haven't taken issue with the surveillance program initiated under the Bush administration, nor, generally, with the work, expanded or not, under this administration. Second, I think there is always the potential for this data to be abused. Third, the various ALLEGATIONS against this administration, that suggest activities intended to silence opposition, has led to what might be the current level of mistrust, yes?
Take Google — one of the major pillars of PRISM and a giant in internet transactions. Clients use it for email services, maps and GPS navigation, document storage, and even some cell-phone services. But Google makes money by learning every piece of information it finds from clients who use these services and monetizing them, Schlesinger points out. "What Google is, in fact, is a data collection company: It collects data on you 15 ways to Sunday, sorts it, chops it up and sells it." And don't even get Schlesinger started on cell phones in general, devices that literally track your movements as long as the phones are powered up. Robert Schlesinger, U.S.News
"The case against the NSA is: Lois Lerner and others of her ilk.
Government requires trust. Government by progressives, however, demands such inordinate amounts of trust that the demand itself should provoke distrust. Progressivism can be distilled into two words: “Trust us.” The antecedent of the pronoun is: The wise, disinterested experts through whom the vast powers of the regulatory state’s executive branch will deliver progress for our own good, as the executive branch understands this, whether we understand it or not. Lois Lerner is the scowling face of this state, which has earned Americans’ distrust. "
Full Article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-lois-lerner-the-scowling-face-of-the-state/2013/06/12/e644307c-d2d5-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html
The NSA taps the data pipe before it even hits the Google Server. Or it captures it as it exits. It doesn't need access to the servers. Therefore, the only time it needs to issue official requests to Google is when it is trying to build a court case against someone.
Initial polling isn't showing a ton of outrage either though it does seem that Republicans were just fine with it under Bush but not so much under Obama and vice versa for Dems.
ReplyDeleteThe public is largely uninformed. Under the Patriot Act, if someone is suspected of illicit activity, the FISA courts can issue secret warrants on the individual(s). What the NSA did is a blanket investigation on millions of individual records without any suspicion. For those on the left that thought GWB was abusing power should be outraged at the illegal power grab of Obama.
DeleteGotta... we are not talking guilty or innocent, we are talking matters of degree. I would say that we have had the NSA up our back sides, certainly since WWII and the randomness of their information gathering has grown as technology has allowed... Carnivore is an example... started under Clinton, carnivore captured and held unfiltered data which was used to do specific searches (so they say). Carnivor ended in 2005 but you can bet that it only ended because a later and greater version came on line....
DeleteThe fallacy in your argument Max is that since Bush collected information on Americans and Obama collected data on American's that they are equivalent. However, the scale and intrusiveness of what has occurred under Obama is much more massive. Don't take my word for it, take the word of others close to the action.
ReplyDeleteIt's a similar argument that Liberals make about the Fast and the Furious. Whereas 8-10 guns crossed the border under Bush, over 2000 guns crossed under Obama. WHY? These are not equivalent actions either.
Live Free,
DeleteFirst, I actually haven't taken issue with the surveillance program initiated under the Bush administration, nor, generally, with the work, expanded or not, under this administration. Second, I think there is always the potential for this data to be abused. Third, the various ALLEGATIONS against this administration, that suggest activities intended to silence opposition, has led to what might be the current level of mistrust, yes?
Jean
Take Google — one of the major pillars of PRISM and a giant in internet transactions. Clients use it for email services, maps and GPS navigation, document storage, and even some cell-phone services. But Google makes money by learning every piece of information it finds from clients who use these services and monetizing them, Schlesinger points out. "What Google is, in fact, is a data collection company: It collects data on you 15 ways to Sunday, sorts it, chops it up and sells it." And don't even get Schlesinger started on cell phones in general, devices that literally track your movements as long as the phones are powered up. Robert Schlesinger, U.S.News
ReplyDeleteInnovative ways our government finds to .... protect us
Deletehttp://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/06/12/electronic-license-plates-proposed-in-south-carolina/?intcmp=HPBucket
So much for the right (presumed because this is a free country) to travel freely around this nation....
"The case against the NSA is: Lois Lerner and others of her ilk.
ReplyDeleteGovernment requires trust. Government by progressives, however, demands such inordinate amounts of trust that the demand itself should provoke distrust. Progressivism can be distilled into two words: “Trust us.” The antecedent of the pronoun is: The wise, disinterested experts through whom the vast powers of the regulatory state’s executive branch will deliver progress for our own good, as the executive branch understands this, whether we understand it or not. Lois Lerner is the scowling face of this state, which has earned Americans’ distrust. "
Full Article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-lois-lerner-the-scowling-face-of-the-state/2013/06/12/e644307c-d2d5-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html
The NSA taps the data pipe before it even hits the Google Server. Or it captures it as it exits. It doesn't need access to the servers. Therefore, the only time it needs to issue official requests to Google is when it is trying to build a court case against someone.
ReplyDelete