For those who don't have their heads firmly buried in their ass and scandal outrage, this story broke yesterday,http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/woolwich-attack-beheaded-london_n_3320758.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
In advance, I realize this is a complete waste of time because I'm going to ask for objective, thoughtful responses that many of you are not capable of. Typically, I get dismissed by the further right types here as somehow being a sympathizer of Islamic terrorists. I am not. I do not condone their violence against innocent people, I do not remotely condone their ruthless Sharia and subjugation of women (and pedophilia marriages) and I do not condone their undying hatred of Jews. Whether Islam is a religion of peace or not is not of interest to me. Organized religions of all stripes have murdered hundreds of millions throughout time. I acknowledge these religions exist, and I acknowledge that millions belong to them. The religion itself, however, is not the problem as I see it.
While I don't condone the violence committed by Islamic terrorists, I nonetheless find myself conceding from time to time that some of them may have a point. It doesn't justify their actions to me, but neither does it negate there is a massive problem growing that the west has largely created and continues to fan the flames of. Certainly, followers of Islam have been at war for a long time and even if the western world did not meddle so much in the affairs of the middle east, there would still be stupid wars. That said, the meddling isn't helping. In the disturbing video of one of the guys, he makes a comment that this sort of slaughter is what people in his country have to see everyday. I doubt they see exactly this type of thing, but with our drone strikes and other missile attacks as well as the civilian deaths during operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan, there are a lot of innocent people who die in the name of us protecting our interests.
The real issue here, of course, is oil. To get that oil, we have supported endless tyranny and brutality. We give a lot of support to the Saudis, home of most of the hijackers on 9/11 as well as Osama whom we also supported while he was our proxy. I accept that at times, these bad alliances are necessary. However, I also believe a "shift" in how we conduct ourselves as a nation has occurred. Rather then stand as a shining city on the hill, I think we have become openly aggressive and lead with an attitude of, "Fuck you, our military is bigger." Much as we espouse free markets and individual freedom, we do not want to pay a fair market price for anything and if there are puppet thugs who are willing to subjugate their people and completely cut them out of sharing in the wealth of their land, we gladly deal with them. Despite celebrating our revolutionary past when we threw the British out of this country over perceived tyranny, we stand back aghast at the thought that we could be perceived as being just as ruthless and tyrannical as the British.
So, what do we do about it? That is a genuine question. So far, we have engaged in a pretty lengthy military campaign that has dismantled AQ, but done little to quell the anger and disparity that gives so many a feeling that they may as well become jihadists because there is little else to do. I don't support redistributing Israel to the people it was taken from. That ship has sailed. Nonetheless, I still maintain, as I have for some time, that waging a war against Islam is ridiculous and that the tide will not be turned until groups like the Islamist Brotherhood are put into a position of accountability. This is not appealing, even to me, but I see no other way. Thoughts?
The real issue is NOT oil it is POWER. We are at a time in our history in which we do not need outsiders to supply us the oil that we need. The Bakken oil fields will supply us all the oil we need. Instead of seizing this new supply and proving jobs that Americans so desperately need, our government does everything in its power to cripple this supply.
ReplyDeleteNot wanting to pay much for consumer goods? Not so. As production moved overseas many of these goods maintained their prices - so who profited? In addition the loss of jobs also meant a loss of consumers to so degree in the future. Again who loss?
The fleecing of the American Taxpayers has been the object of our enemies for well over 90 years now. Just look into "lend lease" during WWll- it is obvious that the enemy was inside then.
"...Despite celebrating our revolutionary past when we threw the British out of this country over perceived tyranny..." the term "perceived" shows you for what you truly are.
Max,
ReplyDeleteI don't see the war on terror as a war oagainst Islam. The public rhetoric, at the very least, is rather the opposite of that, no? I agree that there is an element of desperation in the lives of those who find themelves living in impoverished conditions. Easy to fan flames of hatred. But isn't there an element of truth to the contention that religious extremism is in part to blame? On that score, I recall one point of view that suggested bin Laden was extremely ired by the presence of American military bases on Saudi soil, from the first Persian Gulf War, because he viewed that as desecration of holy ground, so incensed that it lead to the first 911.
You commented about the matter of redistributing Israel back to those from whom it was taken. According to my history, generally it was Jewish land, held by the Romans, and at some point conquered by Muslims, after which the (so-called) Crusades began?
Bringing groups like the Islamic Brotherhood to account is easier said than done, I think. And besides, how would that happen? Further to that, though, is a strategy to prevent this network of various little groups who hold tenous interconnections from, at the least, helping each other out, radicalizing and recruitng others. And then there are the various governments that aid and abet, possibly to prick and irritate other countries.
Sorry, a bit too much thinking out loud and rambling. Whether or not the perception of an aggressive U. S. is out there, what, exactly, is this country supposed to do when it has credible intelligence about the locations of those who would plan to kill innocent people?
Jean
Jean, I genuinely appreciate the response and the time you took to write it.
DeletePara 1) Many many people in this country, and indeed on this website see terror and Islam as one and the same. Neither are stable and fixed as targets on the battlefield. With that in mind, what are we really fighting? Of course extremism is to blame, but like the generic terrorism, how do you fight extremism? This line of thinking becomes circular very quickly. I find most organized religions to have their extremist nut jobs. But, the religion is beside the point to me. I think it is very much about economics. The oil and material wealth of many of these countries is not shared with the people. Millions are illiterate and dare I say ignorant of how badly they are being ripped off. Not only do they have to contend with no economic prospects, but they also have to contend with watching the heavy hands of the entire western world, not just the US, slap them down repeatedly.
To your para 3, it's just as distasteful to me to recognize the brotherhood as a legitimate governing body. Yet, our current attitude seems to be that if we ostracize them and keep them in martyr status, that will help us. I have no doubt that when free elections occur, many populations will choose groups like the Muslim brotherhood. They certainly aren't going to pick the people who kiss our ass. But when we begin to accept those groups and point out how little they are doing for their people, they begin to be accountable. But how do we stop the little groups you mentioned? Sadly, we don't. At least, we don't stop them by endlessly engaging them militarily in Afghanistan or by creating para military police forces like we have since 9/11. I contend that we refuse to accept we have switched from encouraging freedom to promising to slaughter thousands if we are threatened. If we have intelligence, we act on it. Same as we always have. But by the same token, we could begin to roll back our military, close gitmo and be less underhanded in attempting to play empire in the middle east. Saddam was a ruthless punk ass thug, but that fiasco brought us nothing tangible. It will take many years to undue the damage from that. Still, it's time to explore other ways then using our military to fight something that isn't fixed.
Extremism exists everywhere, but what fans it is a feeling of injustice. Look at the current IRS scandal. I'd say we'd be much better off highlighting how unjust these extremists are. Of course that might cause some folks to look as economic disparity in this country, but that's a different story.
Max,
DeleteI agree that religions have extremists; the Catholic Church had rather shameful chapters, just to name one religion. I also agree, sadly, that there are many who probably equate terror, in the "War on" context, with Islam. I don't, by the way. We know, and have known, members of that faith, including Persians and Pakistanis, and they are no different, and just as concerned about violence.
I also agree that poverty and injustice make it soooooo easy for the terrorist creeps to pull members into the dark side.
"we have switched from encouraging freedom to promising to slaughter thousands if we are threatened. If we have intelligence, we act on it."
I can see the move from an active, clearly footprinted military operation to something more finely-grained, but I don't quite go so far as to agree with the characterization in the first sentence. That said, and I want to word this carefully, yes?, what should the official position of the administration be regarding articulation of our response options re threats to our country and our people. Further, "we act on it" arguably leaves open the door for continued used of drones, but honestly, as heartbreaking as is the prospect of innocent civilians being caught in the hell fire, I'm having difficulty thinking that should be discontinued. The luxury of having precisely placed agents or Seals, in a timely fashion, might not be something we can afford, risking the loss of an opportunity.
Sorry, but it seems neither of us has any workable solutions that are an improvement, huh?
Jean
Do you firmly believe that catching civilians in the hell fire as you put it is keeping us safe? I think between what both of us are saying here, there are plenty of things to pursue that could be the beginning of improvements. I believe that too many of us in this country have a false sense of security and a belief that if we keep enough troops stationed close to the gulf, then we will be safe. You agree with me that poverty and injustice makes it easy to pull people to the dark side. Is there nothing we can do about poverty and injustice? This is typically where I get labeled a commie, but promoting poverty and injustice is something that I believe has become a new American value.
DeleteUltimately Jean, a conclusion that I think many will come to if they really think about what we are doing with our military is that the war on terror is not something we can win by simply killing enough people to make them stop. The long road and least desirable road to take is to undermine what the extremists play on, namely the injustice. Do we ever apologize to the families of the innocents we kill? Do we even give a damn? Many don't. If you and I are both acknowledging some similar views, then likely there are more who are tired of the endless waste of blood and treasure.
Mike, Angie, and Jean.....................
ReplyDeleteNone of you will like what I have to say. Muslims and Christians have a long history of hating each other. The Crusades come to mind, but that was inspired by Islamic radicals hundreds of years ago trying to convert Christians to Islamic radicalism.
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Now, if we simply developed our own natural resources (keystone) and told the E.P.A. to get screwed, we could live in harmony with the Muslims. How are those beheading, inbreeding, rapists going to live without our help?
Oh, and I almost forgot, the Muslims cut off the females genitals so the old smelly bastards can rape them.
"Covert".... covert or be killed is more like it. The Crusades were the Christian's response and the reason you did not marry a school chum of your daughter and had the little lady of the house scooting around in a burka .... bloody - absolutely but necessary ....
Deletegotta (or is it Brian?),
DeleteYes, I know my history, and the less than stellar actions of the Crusades, by the way. My version is a little different from yours, though. I thought that when the Muslims conquered the land of and around what is now Isreal, that there was considerable tolerance for Christians and Jews, no?
That view that we can withdraw, turtlehead-like, as a country with our natural resources development I find a little disingenuous. Pointing out the atrocities that some commit, in the name of religion or for other reasons, doesn't contribute anything, as far as I am concerned. I found the last sentence vulgar and tasteless.
Jean
Jean,
DeleteIt may be vulgar and tasteless, but it is quite true.
Jean, this comment here is very well stated.
DeleteJust a side thought to this story.....
ReplyDeleteLiving here in Britain the news is full of this story and it strikes me that the way that this story is reported is exactly how we see the world and differentiate our actions in it. We have decided that where ever someone is that is deemed to be a threat, we treat as an enemy combatant and regardless of the time or what they are doing or who they are with, we hunt them down and kill them as legitimate military targets. What happened here was that two people, known to security services for some time, one with a known history of jihad in Africa, struck with a vehicle then attacked and killed one person. The person that they killed was an active duty soldier. They were specific in who they attacked. They harmed no civilian nor caused damage to any property. They even apologized that women had to see what they did but women around the world experience the horror every day at the hand of the west. The story however depicts these men as terrorists and murderers..... not soldiers or even ‘enemy combatants’ fighting other soldiers for a cause. Either we are fighting a ‘war’ against other warriors who are just as determined to use stealth and tactics to strike without warning anywhere at any time, just as we do, or we are ourselves are using terror as means to a political end. Lets not forget... we haven’t used the words “Geneva Convention” since the signing of the patriot Act.
Thoughts?....
"Either we are fighting a ‘war’ against other warriors who are just as determined to use stealth and tactics to strike without warning anywhere at any time, just as we do, or we are ourselves are using terror as means to a political end. Lets not forget... we haven’t used the words “Geneva Convention” since the signing of the patriot Act. "
DeleteWell, thoughts along this line are what prompted me to write this. The war on terror, IMO, has become a campaign to kill what scares us. We haven't used the words Geneva convention because we don't want to be held to any standard that might draw into question our methods.
Attacks on Muslims spike after Woolwich killing
DeletePolice deploy extra patrols to Islamic sites as people report verbal, physical and online abuse, including threats to kill
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Haroon Siddique and Sam Jones
The Guardian, Thursday 23 May 2013 14.35 EDT
Link to video: Imam condemns Woolwich killing as 'barbaric murder'
Fears of a prolonged backlash against Muslims have intensified after dozens of Islamophobic incidents were reported in the wake of the murder of the British soldier Lee Rigby in south London.
The Tell Mama hotline for recording Islamophobic crimes and incidents recorded 38 incidents over Wednesday night, including attacks on three mosques, with more reported on Thursday.
"What we are seeing is concerted action from individuals across the country," he said. "We are really concerned. When you see a wider picture of resentment and retribution, this is telling us it's an increasing problem. Something is moving in a very disturbing direction."
David Cameron and the London mayor, Boris Johnson, said the beliefs of the suspected attackers were alien to Islam.
"This was not just an attack on Britain and on the British way of life; it was also a betrayal of Islam and of the Muslim communities who give so much to our country," the prime minister said. "There is nothing in Islam that justifies this truly dreadful act." Johnson said it was "completely wrong to blame this killing on the religion of Islam".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/23/attacks-muslims-spike-woolwich-attack
In this footage (warning: graphic footage), obtained by ITV, one of the suspects gives a passerby his justification for the attacks, as the victim lies in the road behind him:
DeleteWe swear by the Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone ... We must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to see this today but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments. They don't care about you. Do you think David Cameron is gonna get caught in the streets when we start busting our guns? Do you think the politicians are gonna die? No, it's gonna be the average guy – like you.
What's the answer William? Just keep repeating what this guy said like you are dropping some meat into a pack of hungry dogs?
DeleteSorry William, your point eludes me. What say YOU.... and why.
ReplyDelete