Monday, April 4, 2016

More BS about abortion

After listening to Trump tap dance around Chris Mathew's "gotcha" question about abortion, I found the follow up commentary of both left and right to be interesting. Actually, more the right. Several right pundits commented and said that Trump basically proved he is not a conservative because he could not clearly explain the conservative position about abortion, and he seemed to only dig the hole deeper when he made the comment, "We should just leave the laws as they are". On Mathews show, the answer to a hypothetical question posed to Trump was that women if abortion was outlawed, women should be punished for having an abortion. Ironically, I think that was probably the most honest answer of the conservative position he could have given, but that's just my opinion.

Just to be clear, my position is as follows, I take zero delight in the number of abortions that are performed, I want to see that number go down, but I believe a woman has the right to choose to have an abortion. I also believe a majority of the country has a somewhat similar view, but that can be manipulated based on how you phrase the question. I spell that out because of the argument I'm going to make next.

Kasich was straightforward and honest, he is okay with abortion in cases of incest, rape, or to spare the life of the mother. My understanding is that Cruz is not. Where I call BS on this is that Cruz went on to say "The woman should not be punished". Based on anti abortion orthodoxy, this answer seems ridiculous. Why shouldn't the woman by punished? If we break up a terrorist ring, do we let the mastermind go and only punish the people who carried acts out? Of course not. The reason why Cruz and other Republicans say women shouldn't be punished is because they know this is politically unpopular with women voters and the public in general. I don't think some here would have a problem calling abortion murder and seeking punishment for all involved, and I believe this is the REAL conservative position. However, because this isn't what a majority of voters want to hear, the Republicans like Cruz run away from giving an honest answer. If abortion is murder, as many conservatives seem to believe, I don't see how you can possibly say the woman shouldn't be punished. Grow a spine Teddy and state what you really believe.......and lose the election.


  1. Hillary Clinton’s ‘unborn person’ comments anger both pro-choice, pro-life sides

    Outlines abortion views after Trump comments spark furor

    By Bradford Richardson - The Washington Times - Sunday, April 3, 2016

    Democratic primary front-runner Hillary Clinton ran afoul of both the pro-life and pro-choice sides of the abortion debate Sunday when she said constitutional rights do not apply to an “unborn person” or “child.”

    “The unborn person doesn’t have constitutional rights,” Mrs. Clinton said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “Now that doesn’t mean that we don’t do everything we possibly can in the vast majority of instances to, you know, help a mother who is carrying a child and wants to make sure that child will be healthy, to have appropriate medical support.”

    Mrs. Clinton also said “there is room for reasonable kinds of restrictions” on abortion during the third trimester of pregnancy.

    Diana Arellano, manager of community engagement for Planned Parenthood Illinois Action, said Sunday that Mrs. Clinton’s comments undermined the cause for abortion rights.

    The comment “further stigmatizes #abortion,” Ms. Arellano said in a tweet. “She calls a fetus an ‘unborn child’ & calls for later term restrictions.”

    Describing the fetus as a “person” or “child” has long been anathema to the pro-choice movement, which argues the terms misleadingly imply a sense of humanity.

    In addition, the specific term “person” is a legal concept that includes rights and statuses that the law protects, including protection of a person’s life under the laws against homicide. Pro-choice intellectuals have long said that even if an unborn child is a “life,” it is not yet a “person.”

    Guidelines issued by the International Planned Parenthood Federation discourage pro-choice advocates from using terms such as “abort a child,” instead recommending “more accurate/appropriate” alternatives such as “end a pregnancy” or “have an abortion.”

    “‘Abort a child’ is medically inaccurate, as the fetus is not yet a child,” the guide reads. “‘Terminate’ a pregnancy is commonly used, however some people prefer to avoid this as terminate may have negative connotations (e.g., ‘terminator or assassinate’) for some people.”

    The guidebook also advises against the terms “baby,” “dead fetus,” “unborn baby” or “unborn child” when discussing what it is that’s being aborted. Instead, it recommends the terms “embryo,” “fetus” and “the pregnancy.”

    “The alternatives are medically accurate terms, as the embryo or fetus is not a baby,” it explains.

    The exchange with NBC’s Chuck Todd on Sunday came after Mrs. Clinton blasted Republican front-runner Donald Trump last week for saying that women should face “some form of punishment” for having abortions if they were illegal. He later reversed his statement, multiple times, after an outcry from both pro-life and pro-choice groups.

    Conservatives also caught Mrs. Clinton’s words and drew implications. Commentary Editor John Podhoretz said the gaffe is comparable to those of Mr. Trump.

    “This is Trump-level gaffery,” Mr. Podhoretz said in a tweet. “If you acknowledge personhood, then the unborn has every Constitutional right.”

    Daily Wire Editor-in-Chief Ben Shapiro also said that Mrs. Clinton’s statement “demonstrates just how incoherent and evil the left’s abortion position is.”

    Mrs. Clinton’s comments come after she implied that primary rival Bernard Sanders is insufficiently pro-choice.

    “Look, I know Sen. Sanders supports a woman’s right to choose, but I also know Planned Parenthood and NARAL endorsed me because I have led on this issue,” Ms. Clinton said on Thursday.

    “We need a president who is passionate about this, seeing it as a top priority because women’s health is under assault,” she continued.

    On Friday, Mr. Sanders dismissed that claim, saying that he’s spent his “entire political life fighting for the right of a woman to control her own body.”

    “What Secretary Clinton did is taking things out of context,” he said.

  2. The left is so great at parsing the culture of death.

    1. Respectfully William, you didn't really address what I said. There is a key difference here, Hillary is 100% pro-choice and if she is trying to desensitize this issue with her word choice, it is because she does not want abortion to be outlawed. I'll give you this, you made the point that Hillary dodges like Cruz does. But that is entirely beside the issue I raised.

      Cruz and conservatives want abortion outlawed. Period. Clinton may have made a Trump level gaff describing a position she supports, but Cruz openly lied, IMO, because he wants to win and THEN find ways to outlaw abortion. If he's not lying, then his logic is completely bullshit. If abortion is murder, like many conservatives believe, then a mother seeking to murder her unborn person with full constitutional rights is fundamentally no different from a wife who solicits for the murder of her husband.

      I don't begrudge how strongly you feel about this. You prefer to use as graphic of language as possible when you unload on me about this, and I take in stride. That's your thing. The fallacy of the graphic crowd who likes to hold up pictures of gore of aborted fetuses is that they seem to genuinely believe people who support keeping the law as is genuinely like it when an abortion occurs. I don't believe anyone celebrates abortion, but they don't want to see it outlawed, and they don't want it shoved in their face.

      People in my vegetarian tribe do the same thing. The stand on corners yelling at people wearing fur, and show movies of documenting endless cruelty to animals. People don't want that in their face either. They want to eat their animal products, and never be forced to see where it actually comes from. Same with our prisons and the death penalty and on and on and on.

      But back to the main point, you didn't address what I wrote about. How can the right logically say a women who makes a decision to seek an abortion should not be punished if abortion is outlawed. Please square that circle for me.

    2. This is a smoke and mirrors issue. The left's ultimate dog whistle. Trump told the truth in response to Mathews hypothetical. Cruz gave the standard smooth it over protest.

      We both know Roe ain't going anywhere. PP will continue to butcher and sell. The abortion industry remains one of our great growth engines.

      I really can't wait until Trump and Hillary square off. Say anything you want about Trump but a load of scabs are being ripped off.

      Dr. Kraut tonight said Trump will lose at the rate of Goldwater. A so called NY times "conservative" said on a Sunday show yesterday that he would lose worse than McGovern.

      He may lose, she may not even get to the last leg of the race due to the FBI. But this is going to be the most fun, a real pisser.

      Insiders versus outsiders. Let the games begin.

    3. You know, I agree 100% with your first para there. Trump totally told the truth and then got raked for it by people who totally agree with he said. I also agree that a Trump Hillary contest is going to be the most disgusting thing ever imagined. Thing is, I don't think the Pubs are going to let Trump be the ticket unless he somehow gets all the delegates he needs before the convention. I think that still remains to be seen if he can do it. Just my 02

    4. As usual you take a comment out of context William to make a point. Clinton said AS THE LAWS ARE WRITTEN the unborn child has no constitutional rights and that is 100% correct.

    5. I didn't write the article lou. I did comment that HRC and the left are great at parsing, and smoke and mirrors. Of course none of this has anything to do with the constitution and Roe was cut out of whole cloth.

    6. "The unborn person doesn't have any constitutional rights"
      -Hillary Clinton

      Uh, this just in:

      "The first paragraph of the Constitution states in part: "...and secure the blessings of Liberty to ourselves and OUR POSTERITY....." Posterity is defined as the unborn and future generations in the dictionary. Therefore they have the same constitutional rights as living citizens."